By the way, you’re wrong about Randy being the only one to come out from under Brock. Heath Herring did it and got back up to his feet several times. No reason why Fedor can’t do the same.

No, I don’t know ANY jiujitsu terms, except those I hear from Joe Rogan. But I meant “top control” in the strictest sense being able to MAINTAIN dominant positions (preventing escape or transitions). And in that sense, Brock has shown far superior ability. Fedor escaped from under Mark Hunt. No one but Randy could come out from under Brock.

Well, by “top control” I assumed you were using a jujutsu term. If all you meant was simply “controlling someone from the top”, then there was no need on your part to differentiate it from strong wrestling which we all know Brock has. That was redundant and misleading of you. But as far as, blocking advancement from the bottom, gaining dominant positions, and securing submissions: Mark Hunt demontrated far better “top control” in his fight with Fedor than Lesnar has in all five of his fights.

Remember how he beat Frank Mir? That’s how. Mir, trapped in the positions he was in, couldn’t do anything but get punched in the face. No escape. No hope for reversals. No possibility for a submission. His black belt jiujitsu was completely neutralized. Completely useless. Where he was supposed to be most threatening (on the ground). Twice. He was utterly dominated.

The Hunt fight shows Brock can do the same to Fedor. If Hunt can mount him twice, Brock can pin him down like he did Mir.

That is a flawed argument. You say Hunt has better top control (plainly false) because his wrestling’s worse? Brock’s been able to keep ALL his opponents down (Couture was the only exception). He completely trapped Mir (a BJJ black belt) in his last fight. Top control doesn’t get much better than that.

And there’s nothing anomalous about either examples. Serra caught GSP over and over again. Hunt nearly submitted Fedor. Despite expectations, these are things that can happen in an MMA fight.

That is a flawed argument. You say Hunt has better top control (plainly false) because his wrestling’s worse? Brock’s been able to keep ALL his opponents down (Couture was the only exception). He completely trapped Mir (a BJJ black belt) in his last fight. Top control doesn’t get much better than that.

And there’s nothing anomalous about either examples. Serra caught GSP over and over again. Hunt nearly submitted Fedor. Despite expectations, these are things that can happen in an MMA fight.

Well how can you know that Brock is not going to be submitted before he mounts Fedor? remember that Hunt got caught in an armbar early on the fight but he masterfully escaped.

Brock is a big, strong wrestler who knows how to use his weight and size to immobilize his opponents. That doesn’t show that he has stronger top control than Mark Hunt. If anything, it demonstrates that Hunt, because of his lack of wrestling accumen, has better top control than Lesnar. But I wouldn’t really base anything off of the Hunt-Fedor fight. That fight, much like the first GSP-Serra fight, is what you call a “statistical anamoly”.

This is an MMA fight. Fedor shouldn’t be unprepared (to the point of near helplessness) when any opponent tries to mount or submit him.

Fedor had problems with the weight difference. Hunt was able to keep him down with weight alone. Fedor only got up because Hunt had poor top control.

Brock’s the same weight and has stronger wrestling and top control (he kept all his opponents down except Couture). He’d be able to keep Fedor down where Hunt couldn’t. If Brock mounts, he’ll finish him.

great vid. man

And he adapted he prevented Hunt from doing damage got back to his feet, reversed Hunt and finally submitted him.
And in fighting if you’re taken by surprise is really hard to recover.

That’s absolutely no excuse. Fedor’s performance shouldn’t fall completely apart just because his opponent does something unexpected. Like any other fighter worth his rank, he’s expected to adapt. And he’s supposed to be the better fighter on the ground.

And on Overeem, you are right.

PS A Overeem has decent submissions skills17 wins by sub and he has tapped only twice.

Yes but hunt instead of standing up, like many strikers would have done, improved position and tried a submission that must have surprised Fedor who was obviously prepared for a stand up fight, what I mean is that Fedor changes his training regimen depending on his opponent and if he were going to fight Brock he would be better prepared for a fight on the ground and on the bottom.

Agreed, but Hunt isn’t a guy with strong ground or submission skills. All but one of his losses are submissions (Alistair Overeem even submitted him). That he gave Fedor such problems and nearly subbed him is very indicative. As I said, Brock is the same size and a much stronger wrestler.

And actually, it was Fedor that took the fight to the ground. It was his attempts to hip throw the oversized Hunt that resulted in him ending up on the bottom.

Well Fedor didnt tapped and he also reversed Hunt and submitted him, but you’re right he had some problems in the ground but not for long, Hunt really surprised everyone giving Fedor troubles before he was submitted, who could have expected that a K1 kick boxer would look for a fight in the ground.

Thanks for the acknowledgement. We can disagree, but no disrespect is given. Other guys I’ve argued with took this hypothetical way too personally.

Brock’s wrestling credentials (excl. the WWE) are unquestionable. He’s got a 106-5 wrestling record and been a wrestling champ (NCAA, Big Ten).

And if you want evidence, see Fedor’s fight with Mark Hunt. Hunt’s not a wrestler and he was able to mount Fedor twice and almost submit him. Brock’s just a few pounds lighter and a better wrestler.

I completely see what you are saying, but I’m not sure if Brock is a wrestler that most people credit him to be. I’m not saying that he is a bad wrestler, but Mir gives his back too easily and controling Heath on the ground doesn’t give me enough evidence to convince me that he can takedown Fedor that easily. I can see that he definetly has the potential to beat Fedor, but can he beat him now? I have no clue.

Watch Fedor’s fight against Mark Hunt. It’s on YouTube, It shows (happened just three years ago, BTW) that he can get dominated on the ground by a much bigger guy (Hunt’s not even a wrestler). He got mounted twice, almost submitted with an Americana. Fedor had an incredibly difficult time getting out from under him. Honestly, I’ve never seen Fedor look that bad in a fight. Brock’s only a few pounds lighter and a far better wrestler than Hunt is.

I’ve never denied he submitted them. I said they were able to get a hold of him, take him down and put him in dangerous positions. With Coleman, that second fight showed his decline, not Fedor’s improvement. Coleman was 40 years old then, give or take a few months. But he was the same age Chuck Liddell is now.

RINGS or Pride. they’re the same person. I’m using his entire career as reference.

And Brock’s shown more drastic improvement in five fights than Fedor has in thirty-one.

And I think Fedor would perform better than Mir for several reasons, first his stand up is better, he is faster, more intelligent, he can pull off faster submissions than Mir, he can instantly pull the full guard, his cardio is better, he has better chin, better recovery, Fedor always prepares better for his opponents and more important Fedor has much more heart than Mir, so I think Fedor would do much better than Mir.

You have your opinion and you support it with facts but you also ignoring other facts, when Fedor faced wrestlers he submitted most of them in the first round the only wrestler who reached the second round with Fedor is Coleman and he got punished badly even if they got the take down it meant little because they got submitted rather quickly and don’t compare RINGS’ Fedor to the actual Fedor, he has improved greatly every aspect of his game they are two completely different fighters.

Lets face it, we’re all interested in seeing Lesner fight, and as long as its not a tomato can, it doesn’t really matter who he fights. Carwin is as good an opponent as any. Brock has fought for what, 7 rounds total in the UFC? Still many unknowns for Lesner. Fedor vs. Brock : I doubt thats gonna happen anytime soon.

@ the MMA analyst: I think you misinterpreted Mir’s psychology during the fight. In my opinion, what you were observing from Mir was the opposite of over-confidence. It was desperation… including pulling guard as well as the jumping knee. By the second round (actually well before the first round ended), Mir was a defeated man.

All this is hypothetical, but you have to support what you say, with facts, or at least a reasoned explanation.

Explain why Fedor would perform better than Mir. Both are proven experts in grappling, but Fedor’s shown the limits I’ve pointed out (takedown defense, passable guard). Brock’s shown the needed skills (wrestling, takedowns, top control).

And Goodridge let Fedor seize the offensive and paid. Brock WOULD NOT strike with Fedor. He’d get KO’d. Take him down, pin him and pound away.